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Post by megamixer on Aug 5, 2022 18:33:31 GMT
Spinning off from the Retroid thread...
...will it ever happen, do you think? We can take for granted these days the ability to emulate pretty much anything perfectly via some method or another, whether it be emulators or hacked consoles.
But the Saturn seems to still resist the trend. I know that this is supposed to be down to how complex the original hardware was to code for (with 2x processors, the other being thrown in at the last minute so that 3D could be done and the Saturn compete with what the Playstation was going to be throwing down) but this "Saturn doesn't emulate properly" thing has been the status quo for SO long that I sometimes think it will never happen.
I mean, even Sega themselves don't seem to want to work it out. Granted, the Saturn's games wouldn't make incredible commercial/financial sense to expend effort on re-releasing, but the fact that they can't simply throw at least some of the best games (Burning Rangers, NiGHTs, Fighters Megamix etc.) together for some sort of easy cash-grab compilation is kind of telling.
And everything that has been ported from the "Saturn" over the years is a bit of a red herring. Games have either been fully remade, or been ported using arcade versions as the basis (Fighting Vipers and VF2 for the PS3, for example). Some games have even had the period PC editions used as port material.
I don't know much about the technical side of emulation and what the specific issue(s) is that is blocking perfect Saturn emulation, but is there some sort of silver bullet that will solve it all, or is it just doomed to be a tangled mess rooted in the hastily cobbled-together architecture of the original platform?
For now, I guess I need to stick with my chipped white NTSC-J Saturn and CD-Rs for the stupidly rare and expensive stuff!
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Post by RetroBob on Aug 5, 2022 19:18:48 GMT
I wonder if the only way would be with the MiSTer? I.e. hardware emulation rather than software?
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Post by sephiroth81 on Aug 6, 2022 8:52:28 GMT
Apparently, Saturn emulation on a modded Nintendo Switch is a very solid option. I saw a MVG (Modern Vintage Gamer) vid of him talking about it and showing it. It uses something called the Zebraengine, and is officially used by the company that handled the Switch versions of Cotton 2 and Guardian Force. Hackers figured a way of using that emulator and injecting other Saturn games into it, and it turned out ran many other Saturn games close to perfectly as well.
A modded Switch can also be overclocked, which apparently irons out most glitches shown in the emulator compared with the stock speed. I'll definitely hack the Switch one of these days, I'm still marveling over the modding of the (New)3DS right now and all the stuff that console could do, so will wait for the Switch's official retirement in 2063 before I monkey around with it.
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Post by mattb on Aug 6, 2022 9:38:55 GMT
I don't think you can expect perfect emulation of anything beyond the SNES right now; at least that's the limit so far of what people have been able to do in terms of cycle accurate emulators. FPGAs also top out at machines of that generation too, because there's a big leap in speed and complexity when you get to 32-bit CPUs and accelerated 3D. As such, games being playable, running at full speed and not looking like crap are the goals for the moment.
Almost every Saturn game from all regions is playable with Kronos, Mednafen and SSF these days on PC though, or at least there don't seem to be that many more gaps in the compatibility lists than you get with N64 and Dreamcast emulators. You do need a moderately decent quad core PC to run games at full speed on them though.
I believe Zebraengine is based on SSF, so its compatibility should also be very good if that's the case, but it apparently suffers from rather bad input lag (10+ frames) so the experience wouldn't necessarily be that great. Maybe that can be reduced with further hacks though, as SSF on PCs doesn't seem to lag by anything like that.
Yaba Sanshiro 2 is also pretty good for handheld Android devices, and that's what you get on the Retroid Pocket 2+, AYN Odin, RG552 and so on. It handles most of the popular English language releases fairly well, although you're going to have to live with a few glitches and you're pretty much on your own when it comes to the Japanese imports. Development is ongoing and they take donations, so if you really want a particular game fixed I guess you could offer them a little incentive.
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Post by rossi46 on Aug 6, 2022 12:03:43 GMT
As said elsewhere, I emulate Saturn stuff mostly on handhelds. My old GPD:XD ran a lot of SS titles well but always with one issue or another (frame rate or glitching, etc). The Retroid Pocket 2+ is much better but still has the odd issue. I find running the Retroarch core gives the best compatability on the RP2. Beetle Saturn, Yaba Sanshiro 2 or Yabause all run well, though not perfect.
A couple years ago I invested in a MODE for one of my Saturns and this has been a revelation. Multi Optical Disk Emulator (I think?) fools the Saturn into thinking the drive has a cd in it and runs isos from a USB stick. It's awesome but I know it's not really emulating the games themselves. Imo, it's the only way to run games as they were meant to be played. Especially if you're plugged into a CRT TV.
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Post by megamixer on Aug 7, 2022 7:56:04 GMT
A couple years ago I invested in a MODE for one of my Saturns and this has been a revelation. Multi Optical Disk Emulator (I think?) fools the Saturn into thinking the drive has a cd in it and runs isos from a USB stick. It's awesome but I know it's not really emulating the games themselves. Imo, it's the only way to run games as they were meant to be played. Especially if you're plugged into a CRT TV. Does something like this require a lot of work? I remember reading about SD card loader mods for the Saturn that needed soldering to install and I ain't great at it. Happy to stick with my chipped machine and mix of real games and CDRs but I am curious about a super-convenient USB mod. |
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Post by englishinvader on Aug 7, 2022 8:14:33 GMT
I mean, even Sega themselves don't seem to want to work it out. Granted, the Saturn's games wouldn't make incredible commercial/financial sense to expend effort on re-releasing, but the fact that they can't simply throw at least some of the best games (Burning Rangers, NiGHTs, Fighters Megamix etc.) together for some sort of easy cash-grab compilation is kind of telling. I have HD remakes for NiGHTs, Daytona USA and Radiant Silvergun on my XBox 360 ( I think it's possible to play all 3 on XB1 although I haven't upgraded myself) and they're a much better experience than you could expect to have from the Saturn (either from the original hardware or emulation). |
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Post by rossi46 on Aug 7, 2022 8:27:31 GMT
A couple years ago I invested in a MODE for one of my Saturns and this has been a revelation. Multi Optical Disk Emulator (I think?) fools the Saturn into thinking the drive has a cd in it and runs isos from a USB stick. It's awesome but I know it's not really emulating the games themselves. Imo, it's the only way to run games as they were meant to be played. Especially if you're plugged into a CRT TV. Does something like this require a lot of work? I remember reading about SD card loader mods for the Saturn that needed soldering to install and I ain't great at it. Happy to stick with my chipped machine and mix of real games and CDRs but I am curious about a super-convenient USB mod. There are tons of YouTube vids for the MODE that are easy to follow. However, you do need to completely remove the cd drive and replace it with the circuit board that contains the drive emulator. It's easy if you're handy with screwdrivers and such. There's no soldering required and is not as tricky as it sounds. Alternatively, the Satiator is a different gadget you can get that plugs into the video card slot on the back of the machine. This has the same end result as the MODE but doesn't require stripping out drives. Both are awesome additions for the Saturn and enable the preservation of your precious cds which can and do often suffer from 'disk rot' from over use and basic old age. |
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Post by rossi46 on Aug 7, 2022 8:36:19 GMT
Saturn MODE install:
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2022 9:32:15 GMT
Yaba Sanshiro 2 is also pretty good for handheld Android devices, and that's what you get on the Retroid Pocket 2+, AYN Odin, RG552 and so on. It handles most of the popular English language releases fairly well, although you're going to have to live with a few glitches and you're pretty much on your own when it comes to the Japanese imports. Development is ongoing and they take donations, so if you really want a particular game fixed I guess you could offer them a little incentive. This reminded me that I had Yaba Sanshiro working pretty well on the NVidia Shield TV at one point (not a handheld but definitely Android). I loaded it up again to try a couple of games - Hyper Duel and Soukyu Gurentai. Both ran pretty well, although there were some noticeable slowdowns. All of which suggests that Switch would have similar problems - probably worse if you were running the Switch at the stock (reduced) speeds. Would be interested to know how the Odin devices would do - maybe the newer SD845 SOC can give more consistent performance. |
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Post by rossi46 on Aug 7, 2022 10:31:51 GMT
I had the free version of Yaba Sanshiro on my GPD which worked well, but when I upgraded to the RP2+, I bought the Pro, ad-free version. This was great for a couple of weeks then the dreaded update came. Now I'm back to the free version again as the Pro version hangs with a black screen every time I attempt to load a game.
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zahir
Atari 2600
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Post by zahir on Aug 7, 2022 17:47:40 GMT
I really hope that one day, Saturn games can be playable at some point.
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Post by kerr9000 on Aug 7, 2022 17:59:36 GMT
I think one day someone will come up with some break through which will lead to easier emulation of the system, but its hard to know, fingers crossed though.
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Post by mattb on Aug 8, 2022 1:07:50 GMT
I'd be a little more optimistic. The quality of the emulation is generally better than people tend to think and most of what I'd consider to be the machine's signature titles - NiGHTS, Sega Rally Championship, Panzer Dragoon, Sega Rally Championship, etc. - are fully playable and looking pretty good on even relatively cheap handheld devices.
I'm sure the rest can improve with time if people keep working on them. It's just a machine that's a few years behind the rest of its generation - and I suppose some from the one after - on account of its relative complexity and the obscurity of much of the catalogue.
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Post by merman on Aug 8, 2022 13:07:59 GMT
I wonder if the only way would be with the MiSTer? I.e. hardware emulation rather than software? PlayStation 1 emulation went from too difficult to mostly playable on MiSTer quickly, so it would be interesting to see the community put effort into Saturn emulation. I am wondering if part of the problem is down to a lack of (English) documentation. Sony put hundreds of development kits out there, but the Saturn was predominantly Japanese developers. |
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Its just some interesting potential opportunities for AI and automation to help and free humans in the future, rather than enslave us. We need General Zod to implement it.